デビッド・バーカーの英語と仲直りブログ：スペースアルク

Hi, everyone:
Actually I was wondering when 'Jehovah's Witnesses' （エホバの証人in Japanese）would appear in this blog, because that’s what those who are against religion refer to without fail. But it’s a little too late tonight, so I’ll post a comment, maybe tomorrow, in English as much as I can. Good night.

むらさき
2007年11月 8日 00:41

Hi David & all!

Wow, today's topic is quite serious, huh? I should start off by saying that actually I have a lot to talk about Jehovah's Witnesses. To tell the truth, friend of mine belong to it. I've known her since I was in a high school, so that's about 20years. When I first found out it, I was SOOOOO shocked, but she've never tried to persuade me to join in Jehovah's Witnesses. She said she was a devout Christian, Jehovah's Witnesses was a part of Christianity. She's very smart, nurturing, and thoughtful. I still look up to her even if she joins this organization. She look very normal for me, but we're not very close anymore for some reason, even if we both live in U.S. Maybe, because she's happier to be with her peers, you know what I mean? I heard that Jehovah's Witnesses's persuation is really persistant. Even here in U.S. As you might not know, Their headquarter is in NY. I'm not sure about this, but it might be called "Watchtower". Or their magazine might be called it. If I'm correct, they don't call their facilitis "church". Their place kind of creepy for me, because their facility has a black fence and no windows. I hate to say it, but some Americans tend to dislike them. Like I said in the previous posting, most Americans are open-mind about religions, but Jehovah's Witnesses might be considered by people a cult like Scientology here. My image of them, they might block others out of their world. My hubby said their lessons were kind of scientific for him, my hubby is a Catholic, not devout though. Come to think of it, my friend's entire family is Jehovah's Witnesses. Which means thier parents've taught Jehovah's Witnesses' lessons their kids. In Jehovah's Witnesses, they must have to pass on their lessons to their new generations. As for a blood transfusion, I think this is ridiculous. I think there is nothing more important than human's life in this world. (of course other creature's lives are important, too. Now I open-mind about religion, but I still don't understand their thoughts.

'Til next time!

Pink NY

Pink NY
2007年11月 8日 01:22

Hi David and Everyone,
I was shocked to read the story about women who died.
Why she and her husband chose to die for their religion than she lives for their babies?
Was it important for her to keep their faith than her life?
I don't understand at all.
This story reminded me of my students.
A few years ago, 2 girls came to study of piano at my house.
They were sisters(6 and 4).
Their parents were member of "Jehovah's Witnesses".
At first I didn't know it.
One day, I gave them a notice of Christmas party.
(I have Christmas party with my students every December.)
However, their mother said to me my daughters don't join the party for our religious reasons, and she gave me a booklet of their religious.
(She just only gave me it, and she didn't induce me it.)
I explained to her that this party hasn't religious significance, and we just only eat some cakes, play some games and have presents for each other.
She said no, though.
I felt sorry them because they were looking forward to joining the party.
I found out it later they have many rules.
"Don't celebrate Christmas" "Don't join festival（例えば地元のお祭りなど）" "Don't sing a school song (probably, a national anthem too)" "Don't give and
receive blood"...
After few years, they stopped study of piano.
There are a student who are classmate of younger sister of them in my class.
After I read the topic of "Jehovah's Witnesses", I asked her about her because it reminded me of them.
She said "she doesn't go to the hospital even if she becomes sick, and she doesn't sing a school song when she attends general meeting of students. December of last year, we had 調理実習　in my class. We were divided into groups, and we were supposed to make a decoration of Christmas's cake, but she refused to do it, so only her group made another one. Probably, she have only a few friends.".
I felt sad.
They were really good girls, but I feel they are tied down by rules of their parents's religion.
Of course, as Pink NY said I have open-mind about religion too, and having religion is free, but this isn't their choice.
They were inculcated their parents with an idea of "Jehovah's Witnesses".
I think they will inculcate them with it when they have children in their future.
I feel anxiety at the thought of that if they need blood transfusion.
I wonder if they refuse it, too.
I wonder if they have priority for their religion than their lives.
I don't understand.

See you soon,

Amica

Amica
2007年11月 8日 11:55

I didn't know that there were Jehovah's witnesses in Japan!

David
2007年11月 8日 22:29

Hi Daivd & all
I know the name of Jehovah's Witness, the group refuses a blood transfusion and it became big news several times before. But I don't know about that very well, so I was surprised to read comments of Pink NY and Amica. Because I understand there are quite a lot of people by our life who actually belong to Jehovah's Witness or who has touched them before.
Jehovah's Witness is said like a kind of cult group, and I think so, too. But I don't know an actual teachings of that, so I don't understand what is grounds of reason they refused a blood transfusion.
Point of this news is 'she refused a blood transfusion' = 'she followed the religion'. This is very important thing, because she chose her belief (religion) not her child and family's futures. She might be persecuted by Jehovah's Witness and regretted it forever, even if she survived by transfusion. So she chose 'her happiness' = 'her religion'. I cannot understand her at all!
Moreover, I think the worst point is the religion deprives the freedom of belief of the child. It's like a kind of abuse a child. Parents often put their children in the religion that they believe. Children will believe their parents' religions, because a small child doesn't have the judgment power. Children will follows what their parents say, because a small child doesn't want to make their parents feel sad. Children have no choice. Is there any good way of saving such children? This is very sad story.

ayako
2007年11月 8日 22:35

ごめんなさい・・・
Daivd　ではなく、David。

ayako
2007年11月 8日 22:45

Hi David and everyone,

There is a meeting house of Jehovah's Witness quite near from my house, and believers are visiting houses with their magazine including my house now and then. Every time I decline their preach saying ' Sorry, but I'm not interested in your religion, or I'm busy now... or something.' I've ever taken a look at the magazine, though. And as Ayako said, sad incidents became big topics in Japan , and some doctor was sued , because he transfused blood to a patient who refused transfusion. I don't know their beliefs well, so I can't say clearly, but I think Jehovah's Witness is kind of cult, but not like オーム真理教．I can't understand their beliefs , and it is really sad thing if children have to follow their parents' faith. The more I think about religion, the more I'm confused and annoyed. This is my honest feeling at the moment. I can't explain logically, but I wonder if we can discuss(talk about) all the religions on the same table.

See you soon,

Anne

Anne
2007年11月 9日 00:08

Hi, everyone:
Atheists refer to ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses’ without fail. I find refusal of blood transfusion ridiculous. But every society has its fringe members. The whole society is not necessarily bad because of its fringe members. Most of Muslims are NOT terrorists, and most of Christians don’t refuse blood transfusion. (What about ‘scientific’ refusal of blood transfusion, by the way? Some people refuse blood transfusion for fear of blood-transmitted diseases like AIDS and hepatitis C.)
‘it is wrong to teach children that they should believe something just because their parents do’ OK. I understand it, but how could it be possible NOT to? It’s easier said than done. I’d really like to know how. Would it be by stripping children away from their parents, saying, ”You can’t live with your mom, because your mom believes in God”? I don’t know which is happier for children: living with their religious biological parents or living with atheistic strangers? (You might NOT have a need to transfuse blood through your whole life.) How could it be possible to separate clearly religion from culture, tradition, art, custom and discipline? You can’t choose where you are born. You might be born in Sierra Leone, in which life expectancy is the shortest in the world (34 years old!). Likewise, you can’t choose who you are born to.
I’m not a religious person, but sometimes I feel something beyond human knowledge in a stormy night. Or I feel the existence of something beyond human understand when I see 2,000-year-old tree or a volcano eruption. I sometimes experience a feeling of awe toward nature and universe. Some people might call it God. I think ayako makes good points about this feeling. こむらさき’s comment「理性を利己的に活かしてしまう人間の本能に対し、自省の念を思い起こさせるのに必要な教えがそこにありました。」は、この点でとても示唆に富んでいると思います。We shouldn’t ‘throw away the baby with the bathwater’.
By the way, is the idea ‘it is not a good thing to believe something when there is no evidence at all to suggest that it is true’ really true? Reason and logic are always so important? I think sometimes ‘believing’ is more important for us than ‘reason and logic’ and ‘truth or false’. To the eyes of those who believe ‘Moderation in all things’ even atheism seems to be just another religion.

むらさき
2007年11月 9日 00:09

Hi Murasaki,

Actually, I think the answer to your question is 'Yes, reason and logic are always more important than belief' because we know that human beliefs can be wrong. When we find evidence that proves our beliefs are wrong, then surely it is better to accept that we were mistaken. If you agree that it is better for people to follow their beliefs than use logic and reason, then the world becomes a very dangerous place. What if I decide to believe that women are inferior to men and that it is okay to be violent towards them? Of course, this is the belief of many Muslims who say that it is okay for men to be violent towards women because of the way they interpret a book that was written hundreds of years ago! Don't you think the world would be a better place if everyone started to use logic and reason? Of course, I too often feel something beyond human knowledge - human knowledge is far from complete. But what should we do about that? Should we keep looking for answers, or should we rely on myths and legends from 2000 years ago when people lived in a completely different world. Also, I don't see that it is a problem for parents to teach their children to decide for themselves. If I had children, I would teach them, "This is what I believe, and this is why I believe it. Other people believe different things. It is up to you to choose what you believe when you are old enough to decide."

Reading your entries, it seems that you have a very high level of English, so maybe you could actually read 'the God Delusion'? Even if you don't agree, Richard Dawkins is much better at making the arguments than I am, so it would be more useful than talking to me. Anyway, it is interesting debating this point, so thanks for your entry.

David

David
2007年11月 9日 09:05

私だけ日本語ですみません。

私は、宗教は必要とされ、人間が見い出したものである以上、科学が真理であると見なすのと同じように、宗教もまた真理なのだと思っています。

科学であっても、還元主義的なアプローチでは現象の全体を捉えられないことが明確なように、すべての物事は相互依存性をもっています。宗教にある洗脳的な面を強調し、啓蒙的にその危険性を説くことに意味があるのでしょうか？

こむらさき
2007年11月 9日 14:37

Hi, David:
Thank you for your comment. This time would you allow me to write this in Japanese?
前回の私のコメントでは、誤解されても仕方がないと思います。「根拠や論理より信念が大事なこともある」の意味するところは、女性を差別して暴力をふるってもかまわないなど犯罪とも言えるようなことではなく、もっと個人的なことについてです。日本には「病は気から」という言葉もありますが、科学的に見て、治る見込みのない末期ガン患者でも、本人が絶対に治ると信じれば、ガンが小さくなっていく実例もあるのです。もちろん科学的根拠と論理を第一とする人々なら、それはストレスを減らし、よく笑うことでナチュラルキラー細胞が活性化したおかげだ（これは科学的に認知されています。）と言うでしょう。でも、その人に絶対に治ると思わせ、笑顔を取り戻させることができるのは、科学的で、時に絶望的な検査の数値ではなく、まったく何の根拠もない信じる力だと思うのです。正しいとか正しくないとかは関係ないのです。正しくても正しくなくてもその人は信じることで救われるのだと思います。
自然に対して畏怖（いふ）の念をいだくということが示唆するのは、神話や伝説に従うということではありません。大自然を前にして、人間がいかに小さくて無力なものかを再認識し、傲慢（ごうまん）さを戒める（いましめる）ということだと思います。
子供の頃サンタクロースを信じていましたか？もちろんその存在に科学的な根拠があるはずもありませんが、私はサンタクロースを信じることが出来る子どもは幸せだと思います。サンタクロースについての世界一有名な社説の一部をご紹介して（ひらがなばかりなので、適宜漢字にしました）、私のコメントを終わりにしたいと思います。（日本語訳しか持っていなくて申し訳ありません。）Thank you for reading.

〈ニューヨーク・サン新聞「社説」〉
記者さま
あたしは八つです。あたしの友だちに「サンタクロースなんていないんだ。」っていっている子がいます。パパに聞いてみたら、「サン新聞に、問い合わせてごらん。新聞社で、サンタクロースがいると言うなら、そりゃもう、確かにいるんだろうよ。」と言いました。ですから、お願いです。教えて下さい。サンタクロースって、本当に、いるんでしょうか？
バージニア・オハンロン　　ニューヨーク市　西５番街１１５番地

バージニア、お答えします。サンタクロースなんていないんだと言う、あなたのお友だちは、間違っています。きっと、その子の心には、今流行の、何でも疑ってかかる、疑り屋根性というものが、染み込んでいるのでしょう。疑り屋は、目に見えるものしか信じません。疑り屋は、心の狭い人たちです。心が狭いために、よくわからないことがたくさんあるのです。それなのに、自分のわからないことは、みんな嘘だと決めているのです。（略）
そうです、バージニア。サンタクロースがいるというのは、決して嘘ではありません。この世の中に、愛や、人への思いやりや、まごころがあるのと同じように、サンタクロースも確かにいるのです。あなたにも、わかっているでしょう。――世界に満ち溢れている愛やまごころこそ、あなたの毎日の生活を美しく、楽しくしているものなのだということを。
（略）
サンタクロースがいなければ、人生の苦しみをやわらげてくれる、子どもらしい信頼も、詩も、ロマンスも、なくなってしまうでしょうし、私たち人間の味わう喜びは、ただ目に見えるもの、手で触るもの、感じるものだけになってしまうでしょう。
（略）
この世界で一番確かなこと、それは、子どもの目にも、おとなの目にも、見えないものなのですから。バージニア、あなたは、妖精が芝生で踊っているのを、見たことがありますか？もちろん、ないでしょう。だからといって、妖精なんて、ありもしないでたらめだなんてことにはなりません。
（略）
サンタクロースがいない、ですって？とんでもない！うれしいことに、サンタクロースはちゃんといます。それどころか、いつまでも死なないでしょう。１千年の後までも、サンタクロースは、子どもの心を、今と変わらず、喜ばせてくれることでしょう。

むらさき
2007年11月10日 00:10

Hi Murasaki,

Some of that is quite difficult, and I'm not sure I understand it all, but I don't think that the first part has anything to do with religion. I do not believe in the existence of a god, but I do know from my own experience that when you are injured or sick, your state of mind can have a big effect on your recovery. Doctors cannot always explain why, but that doesn't mean that the answer is God or some kind of magic - it simply means that there are things we don't understand yet. Throughout history, people have been saying that different things were proof of God simply because they didn't understand them. As science has come to understand more and more, the churches have fought them at every turn because they wanted people to believe that these things were evidence of the power of God. Darwin himself waited years to publish his findings because he was scared of the reactions of the churches.
As for the Santa Claus story, I have read that before in English, and I think it is very nice. It is, however, quite different from religion. How would you feel about teaching children this? "There is a Santa Claus, and you must believe that. Even when get older and see evidence that makes you doubt the story, you must continue to believe it. If you don't believe it, you will go to hell forever. People who don't believe in Santa Claus, or who believe somthing else, will all go to hell. Santa Claus has a list of things that you should do in your life, and a list of things that you shouldn't do. It is better to follow this list than use your own judgement about what is good or bad. Other people will tell you how to interpret this list, and you must follow what they say without question, even if you think it is wrong. People who break Santa Claus's rules will be punished in hell forever."

Actually, the idea of Santa Claus is quite similar to religion in some ways because it is used to control children. When I was young, I (and all my friends) were constantly told, "If you are a bad boy, Santa Claus will not come!" When we went to meet 'Santa Claus' at a department store or somewhere, the first question he asked was always, "Have you been a good boy this year?" Of course, I always lied and said that I had!

Anyway, the story I have just outlined about Santa Claus is exactly what I was taught by Christians when I was a child. Being an aetheist doesn't mean that you can't enjoy ideas like Santa Claus, but if I had children, when they became old enough to think for themselves and asked me about the existence of Santa Claus, I would not lie to them. I wonder how you would feel about a 25-year-old person who actually believed that Santa Claus was going to bring them a Xmas present?

I went for a walk in the forest yesterday. It was incredibly beautiful, and I felt a real sense of wonder at how the trees know when to shed their leaves and the fact that the whole cycle will be repeated next year. There is beauty in this world that is beyond my understanding, but that is not evidence for the existence of God. To be honest with you, there are many things that amaze me because they are completely beyond my understanding: how is it that I can press buttons on my keyboard, and minutes later, anyone in the world can read my message? How do mobile telephones work? How can the parts of an engine move so quickly? Of course, there are people who create these things, and they are not Gods - they just understand more than I do. If I could travel back in time far enough, my knowledge would make me like a God.

Religious people often mention things like love and hope as the strong points of religion, but the basis of religion is really controlling people through hatred, fear, and guilt (at least the one I know - Christianity). People are killing each other around the world right now because they believe that is what their God wants them to do. Even though their bible says quite clearly, "Thou shalt not kill", they have been brainwashed since childhood to accept the interpretations of this handed down by priests and politicians. I think I mentioned before the quote in Dawkins' book: "Those who can be made to believe absurdities can be made to commit atrocities."

This year, I hope there are many children who have a happy Christmas because they believe in Santa Claus. I also hope, however, that they think about the hundreds of thousands of children around the world this Christmas who are suffering because they don't have enough to eat or drink. When they get old enough to ask themselves, "Why doesn't Santa Claus help those children", I hope the answer that parents give them is not "Because they don't believe in him and he loves you more because you do."

Thanks for the debate. I hope we have a chance to talk about it face-to-face one day.

David

David
2007年11月10日 09:54

Hi David,
I am a Christian (not a Jehovah’s Witness, incidentally) and would have to agree with you that there are things that doctor’s can not explain. I would also agree that it the past there have been times when unknown things were attributed to the mystery of God and that through scientific discoveries we have seen that some of these things are results of natural processes.
But, perhaps, the bigger question is how those natural processes were set in motion? As an atheist you might say they are just the result of the evolutionary process, but that in itself is “faith” not fact. What would happen if some day scientists proved that Evolution were false? What might that mean? Perhaps, it would point to a Creator who designed you, me and everything in the universe. Then what? Someone smarter than ‘we’ exists. If someone designed us, perhaps he has some ideas about how we might function optimally. Maybe there is some sense in living by rules like : ‘Don’t kill people.’ ‘Don’t lie about your neighbor. ‘ ’ Don’t sleep with someone else’s wife.’ Some may think that those ‘rules’ are controlling, but they really bring more freedom. No jail time. No mistrust. No jealous husbands. No broken families.
Saying that religion is living by a bunch of rules is misnomer with respect to Christianity. The ‘rules’ are really a standard that nobody can live by...without help.
Many people call themselves ‘Christians.’ But how their actions really show you who they are. Christianity is analogous to marriage . In a marriage of many years, a husband and wife start to look, act, and talk more like each other. Similarly, the longer a Christian walks with God the more of God you can see.
If God were a dictator, he would make everyone follow all the ‘rules’ and punish them when they disobeyed. But he isn’t like that. He gives us a choice to choose him or reject him. Not following the rules have their own consequences. But when we choose him, he helps us with the rules because they are impossible without him.

BTW, I tried to see you the last time I went to Nagoya...It’s been a long time since the 指導室.
先輩 Steve

Steve Glick
2007年11月10日 16:43

Good heavens! Is this Steve from Sapporo? I seem to remember we argued about this very topic quite a lot up there as well! I haven't seen you for about 10 years! Where are you now? What are you doing? How on earth did you come to be reading this blog?

And have you read the God Delusion? :) I would have to disagree with you about the rules being impossible without God. Plenty of people live good and happy lives without believing in God. My brother would never dream of cheating on his wife, but that has nothing to do with a belief in God. The vicar of my village church, however, had to move because of scandalous affair with a local married woman. Also, I don't think you can really say that God gives us a choice to accept or reject him and his rules when the consequence for doing so is burning in hell forever!

I guess that people who do not believe are not going to convince religious people that their beliefs are wrong, but I am very happy that people are finally standing up to the religious bullying that has gone on for years (and still goes on in many parts of the world, including the U.S. - read some of the stories about aetheists living in the Deep South). I have no problem with reasonable people who are not trying to force their beliefs onto other people (like most Japanese people), but when the president of the most powerful country in the world says that invading Iraq was what God wanted him to do, and when a scarily high percentage of the population of the country with the world's biggest military machine think that the earth was created in 7 days despite an enormous amount of evidence that this is nonsense and no evidence whatsoever to suggest that it is true, I feel it is my responsibility to stand up and say what I think, and I applaud Richard Dawkins for being brave enough to lead this movement. Incidentally, how many times have people threatened to kill you or your family recently because of what you believe? My guess is 'never', because aetheists do not usually threaten to kill people who are religious. If only the same thing could be said the opposite way around!

Anyway, great to hear from you, and hope you will join us for some other less contentious topics of discussion in the near future.

Bye for now,

David

PS I had a chat with Cameron on Tuesday night. He is married now, and living back in NZ.

David
2007年11月10日 18:42

Hi, David:
You mentioned before ‘What Richard Dawkins and many others are trying to persuade people is that it is not a good thing to believe something when there is no evidence at all to suggest that it is true.’, right? Santa Clause is an only exception? Good!
For the first part, what gives a good influence on the state of mind can be religion. That’s what I mean.
I hate to say this but 「サンタクロースを信じないと地獄へ行くと、子どもに教えたとしたらどう思うか」とか「２５歳になってもまだサンタクロースを信じている人がいたらどう思うか」とか、どうしてaetheistsの人たちはいつもこういう極端で異常な例ばかり取り上げるのでしょうか？Dawkinsの本に出てくる例も狂信的な部分ばかりおおげさに強調しているように思えてなりません。宗教を持っている人たちの大半は、aetheistsに比べてそれほど偏見と悪意に満ちた人たちではないと思いますけど。残念ながら、結局、aetheistsの主張していることはよくわからないままでした。

むらさき
2007年11月11日 00:30

David and everyone:
肝心なことを言い忘れました。
このたび、むらさきは新しい環境で新しい生活＆勉強をすることになりました。そこでは英語以外の言語にも取り組まなくてはなりません。
最後の数日間でレギュラーの皆様にできるだけコメントをと思ったのですが、ご覧のような騒ぎ？で．．．。１年とちょっとでしたが、自分でもこんなに長続きするとは思っていませんでした。あっという間にのめり込んでしまったようです。
Davidはじめ皆様には大変お世話になりました。ここでひとまず休憩です。
みなさん、どうもありがとうございました。

むらさき
2007年11月11日 01:20

Hi むらさき,

新しい生活＆勉強？英語以外の言語…？
どこか遠い所へ行かれるのですか？
いずれにせよ、とても寂しいです。
むらさきのコメントはいつも知的センスに溢れていて、それでいてユーモアもあり、読んでいてとても勉強になっていたので。
また必ず戻ってきてくださいね。
私はもうしばらくここで頑張ります。

Amica

Amica
2007年11月11日 07:40

Hi むらさき、
I've learned a lot from your comments and writings, and I miss you.
新しい環境、勉強、きっとさらに飛躍したむらさきさんとなられることでしょう。お会いしていないのにこんなに寂しく感じるなんて思いもしませんでした。
またいつか戻ってきてください。

Anne

匿名
2007年11月11日 08:29

Hi むらさき,

うそ・・！　お別れ？　なんで？　やだよ～・・(;_;)　
でも新しいことに挑戦するんだから「頑張って」って言わなくちゃだよね。　英語以外の言語か～、大変そうだね。　でも勉強熱心なむらさきなら、きっと何語でも、どこに行っても大丈夫だと思います。　頑張ってね！　う～ん、でも寂しいよ～・・。　「ひとまず休憩」って事は落ち着いたら戻ってくる？よね？　勝手に待ってるね～＾＾

Tomo

Tomo
2007年11月11日 09:52

Hi むらさき,
本当に寂しくなります・・・。
このブログの読者の中には「むらさきファン」が沢山いると思います。聡明でユーモアがあり博識で、私もむらさきのコメントは楽しみでした。今回、Davidが投げかけたtopicは本当に難しい問題だと思います。人が一生かかっても解けない命題のような。そこに真っ向から対立（？）できたのは、むらさきだけです！！
私こそむらさきにお世話になり、ありがとうございました。休憩が終わったら、すぐに戻ってきて下さいね:-)♪

ayako
2007年11月11日 09:52

Hi Murasaki,

Sorry to hear that you will be leaving us, but I hope you will join us from time to time. Good luck in whatever you are doing. Just one final thing, though; the idea of "If you don't believe in God, you will go to hell" is not 極端な例. I and everyone I know was taught this as a child. It is one of the most basic points of the Christian religion. I think that because Japanese people are able to take such a balanced view of religion, it is difficult to understand the reality of life in countries where people do not take such a balanced view. I went to Sunday school when I was a child, as did many of my friends. We were told, "This is the truth. You must believe it. Do not ask questions". When I tried to raise logical arguments with my 'teacher', I was told to leave! I think Japan has a wonderful attitude to religion - if you want to believe, that is up to you, but don't try to force it on other people. The problem is that the rest of the world is not like that, unfortunately.

Anyway, thanks for making this an interesting debate. As I said, I hope you will find the time to join us again sometime.

Bye for now,

David

David
2007年11月11日 10:23

Hi むらさき
I will really miss you.
As Ayako mentioned, I am one of your fan.
I had always enjoyed reading your comments, sometimes it was difficult though.
Especially, this topic is too difficult to express my opinion even in Japanese. I can’t write about this in Japanese, much less English. なので、本当にむらさきはすごいな～と感心していました。
当分むらさきのコメントを読めなくなると思うと、残念で仕方ありませんが、新しい環境での生活が落ち着いたら、また戻ってきてくださいね。

ａｍｏ
2007年11月11日 13:02

むらさきぃぃぃ。
新しい環境、生活＆勉強に新たな道を踏み出すのね。
すっごく、寂しい。　
いつもいつも、ユーモアがあって、レベルの高い英語で、筋の通ったコメントで、みんなを引っ張ってくれてたよ。今まで、ありがとう。＾＾　時々は、サイトに“最新むらさき情報”を送ってほしいなぁ。
私もＴｏｍｏ同様、勝手に待ってるから～。

Ｈｉ，Ｄａｖｉｄ　ａｎｄ　ａｌｌ
　書き込みは、なかなか出来なかったけど、なんとか読んでました。
Ｄａｖｉｄとは、宗教に対してあいまいな日本という国と、キリスト教が定着しているイギリスで育った彼との宗教観の違いというか、バックグラウンドの違いからくる、意見のギャップが見受けられ、その違いがまた議論をおもしろいものにしていたような。。。(^^)
　この前、宇宙飛行士の野口聡一さんが、暗黒の宇宙から美しい青い地球を見た時に、『天啓』のようなものを感じたと話しておられました。野口さんのような最先端の科学者でさえ、宇宙から
地球を眺めると、something greatを思うのかぁっと、印象に残ったのを思い出しました。

Hi,Steve
Welcome to this blog !
Please join us once in a while ,so we could see the both Christian and atheistic side of opinions .

Q chan
2007年11月11日 15:59

Hi むらさき,

ここにコメントをする前からこのブログをずっと読んでいました。わたしもむらさきさんのファンです。いつもユーモアがあって、芯のあるコメントを読むのが楽しかったです。今回のトピックはとても難しくて、そのなかで自分の考えをきちんと言うことができるむらさきさんに刺激をもらいました。
新しい環境での生活、楽しみですね。新しい言語も！
体に気をつけて頑張って下さいね！

Asa

Asa
2007年11月11日 16:46

Hi David and Everyone,

Sorry, I didn't join the blog last week, but I'm reading all your comments. As everyone says, this topic is quite difficult and complex.(I can't understand why religious issues are so complex, though.) As I said before, I have no religion, and I have a very poor understanding about religions. All I can say is that people are free to believe whatever they want, but they should accept others and changing.
A long time ago, there were a lot of things people couldn't help, and they made up Gods, religions and myths. I think they couldn't help to believe something for what they couldn't do anything. I can understand these people. But the world have changed. How can they still believe the same thing? I don't say that believing something is a bad thing and all religious people are dangerous, but I just can't understand people who believe their religions so blindly. I think a lot of people are happy with their religions, but there are a lot of people who don't seem to be happy for me. But they(people who don't seem to be happy for me) would say that they are happy to believe in God. Why? Is it because that they have been taught since childhood? How can we stop that? They are in a vicious circle. If my parents and all people around me had believed in God and been religious, I would have followed them without a doubt. It's scary! I'm very happy to be born here and free to believe whatever I want.
As for the woman gave birth to twins, how could she leave her babies? How could her husband and family let her die? I can't understand their feelings, but for them, it was better dying than living with the sin. Why? I will never ever ever understand that.
When I think of religious people, I'll have a lot of ‘何故？’,‘どうして？’on my mind. For me, they seem to be bound by their religions and faith, they seem to sacrifice themselves and their freedoms.
道徳的な教えや、救われたり心の支えになるものはあってもいいと思うけど、例えば一夫多妻制とか、結婚するまでデートもしないとか、男性の方が偉いとか(これは日本にもちょっとあると思う）、そういうのはどうしても理解できない。　そんなんで人生楽しいのかとか思ってしまうし・・。　でも生まれた時からそれが当たり前に周りにあったらどうだろう？　やっぱりそれを受け入れるしかないのかな。　受け入れるも何もそれしかないのだから、それが｢普通｣になるのかな。　私にとって｢あり得ない｣ことでも信じてしまうのは、それが当たり前だから？　危険な考えに走ってしまうのは、死を望むほど絶望してるから？　例えばいくつかの宗教で聖地を争ってるなら、どうして仲良く｢順番に｣ってことにならないんだろう？　そんなに譲れないほどの信念って何だろう？　どこまで考えても理解できないです。

Hope you are all having a great weekend.

See you soon,

Tomo

Tomo
2007年11月11日 17:51

Hi むらさき,
今朝のコメントは仕事に行く前に大急ぎで書いたので、少し付け加えさせてください。

いつもむらさきのコメントを読むたびに、尊敬の念を抱いていました。英語力もさることながら、自分の意見をしっかり持っていて、しかもそれを的確な言葉で表現していて…。
今回のトピックスでもそうです。
私は議論に参加することすらできませんでした。
（私もコメントは書きましたが、体験したことをただ書いただけで、自分の意見というものはほとんど入っていないお粗末なものでした。）
真っ向からDavidと議論しているむらさきは本当に素晴らしかったと思います。
いつかまた、このブログで会えることを楽しみにしていますね。
むらさきにたくさんの幸がおとずれるよう、祈っています。

Amica

Amica
2007年11月11日 18:42

Hi David and Everyone,
LONG TIME no see! I had been busy at work and also with some travels. I've tried to catch up with you since I stopped posting mine, and finally I've read most your commnets. And I'm very surprised at むらさき's commnet!!

Hi むらさき,
私も｢むらさきファン｣の1人です。いつも、むらさきのｗｉｔの利いたコメントを楽しみにしていました・・・とっても、残念です。
新しい環境での生活＆勉強、楽しみですね。｢休憩｣終わったら戻ってきてくださいね。またお話できるのを楽しみにしています。

Maki

Maki
2007年11月11日 22:50

Murasaki,
Oh my goodness! You are leaving us, Murasaki?! There have been some changes in my life too, and I haven’t really been keeping up with your discussions lately, but I’ve always loved to read your witty, funny, and inspiring comments. I’ll so miss you! And whatever you are doing now, I wish you good luck. See you around, okay?

Lily
2007年11月11日 23:38

Hi everyone,
I understand what Tomo wants to say very well. Mr. Glick said that
'If God were a dictator, he would make everyone follow all the 'rules' and punish them when they disobeyed. But he isn't like that. He gives us a choice to choose him or reject him. Not following the rules have their own consequences. But when we choose him, he helps us with the rules because they are impossible without him.'
This sentence gave me a shock. 'They are impossible without him.'
I don't understand this sentence. I cannot agree it though I understand he wants to say. Is this because I am ignorance about the Christianity? I can say only the word 'why?', like Tomo.

'The bigger question is how those natural processes were set in motion? As an atheist you might say they are just the result of the evolutionary process, but that in itself is "faith" not fact.'
I also don't understand this part. All the things that we already confirmed as the fact, is 'faith'?

David has the base that learnt the Christianity when he was young, like Q chan said. But most Japanese (including me) have never studied the Buddhism nor shinto(神道) religion at the school and home. 'we go to the funeral' or 'we have a Buddhist alter in our house', both are just touching the religion. It is different from learning of the religion. After all, I don't have the base of way how I can convince other people my theory, because I don't know about religion　and I've never learnt about religion.
David said that Japanese people are able to take such a balanced view of religion. But it might mean that Japanese really doesn't know about religion. I mean it might be correct that we cannot give advice because we don't know any religion well, rather than we are broad-minded about religion. Therefore, I cannot deny what they (Mr. Glick, Mr. Dawkins, Daivd or....)say.

I have one more question.
If atheist says that religion is useless and harmful, are these all things useless things?, like historical religious building, painting, symbol and so on. People in Vatican, most are clergy, like the priest and the nun, etc. Is this country harmful? Vatican is World Heritage. (I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding it, because I didn't read Dawkins's books yet.)

P.S. Wow, Hi Maki, Lily!
久しぶりにコメントが見られたのもむらさきの力だね ;-)

ayako
2007年11月12日 00:46

私には、Davidの意見が、事象の一面を見ているものでしかないと感じます。なぜ、そのように思うかを例え話で説明します。

『僕は、車の無い社会に住んでいます。毎日、ゆったりとした時間が流れてて、モノは溢れてないけど、幸せに暮らしています。

だけど、世の中には車社会っていうのがあって、毎日毎日、車の事故があって、数え切れない人達が世界中で死んでいると聞きました。

僕は、そんな殺人マシーンが人間に必要だとは思いません。僕は車がなくたって、すごく幸せに暮らしてるし、車は便利だって言うけど、人の命の方が絶対に大事だと思うから。

それに車は、身体に悪いってわかってる排気ガスっていうのも出してるんだそうです。どうして、身体にも、もちろん自然にも悪いって分かってるのに、それを乗るのを止めようとしないのか、僕にはさっぱり分かりません。

車社会の人たちは、便利が一番って洗脳されてるんじゃないでしょうか？車がないと生きていけないって思ってるのが、僕には信じられません。』

つまらない例え話ですが、事象の一面だけを捉えての議論が意味がないということを言いたくて、書いてみました。

こむらさき
2007年11月12日 02:31

むらさき、

もう、読まれることが無いかも知れませんが．．．
ハイレベルの英語とロジックで脳トレ以上の刺激を受けていました。非常に残念ですが、飛翔の時なのですね。

マック
2007年11月12日 11:43

Hi David and Everyone,

First of all, let me say this to Asa. Nice to meet you! I was re-reading the blog and noticed that I didn't say hello to Asa. Asa, I'm sorry I didn't say this sooner. Let's have fun together on the blog!

Welcome back Amo, Q chan, Maki and Lily. I'm so glad to see your comments! 良かった、コメントがなくても読んでいてくれたんですね。　Ayakoの言う通り‘むらさき効果’だね～＾＾(という私も先週は読んでるだけで書けなかったんだけど・・）

今回のトピックは本当に難しくて、Ayakoが言うようにやっぱり日本は特殊で、きっと私が理解できないと思うのと同じように、信じてる人たちから見たら、何も信仰がないほうが理解できないんだろうな・・と思ったり。　‘宗教問題は複雑’ということだけ知っていて、あとは何の知識もないので簡単に色々言えないかな・・と口が重くなって、読む方に専念してしまいました。　「エホバの証人」は家にも時々来るけど、私はこれも普通のキリスト教だと思っていました。　キリスト教にもたくさん種類がありそうですね。　キリスト教といえばクリスマスを祝うものだと思っていたので、いろんな事実を知って驚きです。　
私は信仰心は全然ないけど、お坊さんのお話は結構好きだったりします。　修学旅行で薬師寺で聞いたお坊さんの言葉を今でも覚えているし、お坊さん兼化学の先生だった人の話とか、雰囲気とかが好きだったし。(でも化学は嫌いでした(笑))　この間も法事でお坊さんのお話を聞いたけど、やっぱり話がうまいなーというか、心にスーッと入ってくるなぁ・・という気がしたし。　何ていうか、穏やかな目と雰囲気が好きかな。仏教や神道について教えられたことはないけど、やっぱり色々な場面で触れてきたからこんな風に思うのかな。　神様は子供の絵本でもよく登場するけど、私は世界の神様よりも日本の神様(仏様？）の方が好きです。　信じる者しか救わないなんて言わないし、誰にでも平等だし。(子供の絵本レベルの知識だけど)　ギリシャ神話なんかを読むと神様なのに欲があったり、嫉妬したりで、親近感は沸くけど全然信じる気にはなれない(笑)　これも文化の違いなのかな～。
私は‘神様’よりも‘前世’とか‘霊’とかだったら信じちゃうかもしれません。　100%じゃないけど、そっちの方がありそうな気がするし(霊感は全くないけれど）。

Ayako - 自分で書いてても何が言いたいんだろう・・？って感じだったのに、分かってくれて嬉しいよ～＾＾　実は私もAyakoと同じ言葉にショックを受けました。でも信じるのは自由だから何とも言えないかな。。
By the way, 昨日は同時にポストだったね～。　What a coincidence!

こむらさき - 車の例はよく分からなかったのですが、私はDavidの意見が‘事象の一面を見ているものでしかない’とは思いません。　私にはただ‘実際に起きている事実’を言っているように感じました。　例えもしそれが極端な例だったとしても、それはやっぱり起こっている事実で、その数は無視できるほど少なくないように思います。

See you soon,

Tomo

Tomo
2007年11月12日 11:56

Hi Amo, Q chan, Maki, Lily,
またコメントを読むことができて、とてもうれしいです。

Hi Asa,
Nice to meet you!

Hi Tomo and Ayako,
私も仏教徒とはいえ、宗教は全く無知に等しいので、お二人の意見はとてもよくわかります。
私も「Why?」としか言いようがありません。
今回は本当に難しいテーマでした。
Ayakoの言うように、日本人は宗教に寛大なのではなく、ただ知らないだけなのかもしれません。
私はお正月には神社へ初詣に行くし、お盆はお寺でお参りするし、クリスマスはお祝いするし、外国へ行くとあちこちの教会を訪れてはキャンドルに灯をともしてお祈りするし、宗教に節操のない典型的な日本人です。
そんな私がDavidの話を完全に理解することは難しいかもしれません。けれど、「知らない・わからない」ですませてしまってはいけないことだと思いました。
考えるきっかけを与えてくれたDavidに感謝します。

Amica

Amica
2007年11月12日 12:38

This topic is really hard to talk in English, so please allow me to use Japanese.

私は、日本は昔から八百万の神々（やおよろずのかみがみ）の信仰があるから、他の神様（キリスト教とかイスラム教とか、などなど）に対しても排他的にならないんじゃあないでしょうか。『お宅は、どちらから？あっしは、便所の神様ってぇ者です。えっ、海の向こうからお越しなすった！？キリストさん？！へぇ～そういう神様もいるんですかぁ。まあ、どうぞどうぞ、ごいっしょに。^^』って感じで、日本で居着いてしまった諸外国からの神様って、結構いるよね。いい意味での曖昧さがあってこそ、共存できているんだと思う。そういうことが許されない考え方の人や国の間で、宗教戦争って起こってるよね。自分以外は認めないなんて。。。
私は日本のそういう土壌は、とてもいい所じゃあないかなって思う。

Q chan
2007年11月12日 13:50

Hi David and everyone,
It’s good to have these discussions with you again. I have traveled to Japan four times in the past three years and on a couple occasions make contact with you, but was unsuccessful.
Like you said, we did have many discussions about this topic when we lived in Sapporo. I left Japan in 1996, so I suppose we have about 11 years of discussions ready on this topic. I also understand that it is a difficult topic in English as it would be in Japanese too. So, I would just like to clarify some points and answer some questions.
Ayako and Tomo had some questions about this:

If God were a dictator, he would make everyone follow all the 'rules' and punish them when they disobeyed. But he isn't like that. He gives us a choice to choose him or reject him. Not following the rules have their own consequences. But when we choose him, he helps us with the rules because they are impossible without him.'
This sentence gave me a shock. 'They are impossible without him.'
I don't understand this sentence. I cannot agree it though I understand he wants to say. Is this because I am ignorance about the Christianity? I can say only the word 'why?', like Tomo.'

Yes Ayako, basically David and I are talking about Christianity. To understand what I ment we have to look at what the rules mean.
The rules in the Bible define a standard—God’s standard for relationships. They tell us how to have a relationship with God and the best relationships with people. One example is: ‘Don’t lie.’ We can call this the Truth rule. In order to keep this rule a person must speak the truth his or her entire life. How many people do you know who have always told the truth? After one lie a person fails to meet God’s Truth rule forever. If you break a rule it is called sin in the Bible. God has many standards or rules. If you can’t meet one standard you can have no relationship with God. Some may say it is natural for humans to tell lies accidentally or intentionally from time to time. That is exactly the point! It may be human nature, but God’s truth rule is still the same. This is why I said it is impossible for us to keep the rules. God knows we can’t meet the standard so he provided a way called grace and forgiveness. That’s the only way we can “keep” the rules according to the Bible.

I can start to see David’s point about not having a choice to accept or reject God. God set up the rules so he can decide how to play the game of life. We are only players. Yet, even as players we can opt out by grace and forgiveness through Jesus.

The second question was:
The bigger question is how those natural processes were set in motion? As an atheist you might say they are just the result of the evolutionary process, but that in itself is "faith" not fact.'
I also don't understand this part. All the things that we already confirmed as the fact, is 'faith'?

Yes. If you look a the 'facts' for evolution. They seem a lot more like faith. For example, one definition of faith is ‘belief that is not based on proof. ‘In most of these discussions we have said that religion is based on faith not on fact. My point above is that there is no substantial proof that Evolution is fact. In valid scientific research there are typical steps to take to answer a question. The five steps are:
1. Question: Ask a question about something you observe:
2. Hypothesize: Make a statement of what you think causes what you see.
3. Experiment: Test your hypothesis with repeatable experiments
4. Analyze: Examine what happened in your experiments.
5. Conclusion: Check to see if your experiments prove your hypothesis.

If you apply this to Evolution you have some problems.
1. Question: How did humans appear on earth?
2. Hypothesis: Humans evolved from monkeys.
3. Experiment: make new humans from existing monkeys.
4. Analyze: Can’t make a human from a monkey today.
5. Conclusion: Evolution is TRUE! Humans evolved from monkeys over millions of years.
That’s why I say Evolution is ‘faith’ not fact.
We have never seen a monkey change from a monkey to a human. Evolutionists try to explain this by the natural process takes millions and millions of years to complete. Well, we’ve been waiting at least 6,000 years and we haven’t seen it yet! So, by definition you have ‘faith’ in Evolution because it is not based on proof.

BTW, David, I have been in contact with Liz. She's having her second child around Thanksgiving. I told her about your great success in Japan.
Is there any other way to contact you to catch up?
And finally, I haven't read the 'The God delusion.' ;)

Steve Glick
2007年11月12日 14:10