2011年10月 3日
Bad Manners
On Friday, I was thinking about Ash's comment that Japanese people are only polite to people they know or have a connection with. This weekend, I saw two things that reminded me of this, and I thought it would be an interesting topic to discuss.
On Saturday, I went for a ride on my bike, and I stopped at a "michi no eki" in Gifu. I wanted to buy a soft cream, so I went to the food stall, where they also sell things like potatoes and "gohei mochi" There was an older man in front of me, and he just walked up to the woman and said 「コロッケ」. Just that. He didn't greet her, and he didn't say "please."
When I heard that, it made me think two things:
1) Nobody in my country would ever speak to another person like that in that kind of situation. We are taught always to say "please" when we ask for something, and I'm sure that 99% of people would say "Hi" or "Hello" to the person selling the food. If you just walked up and said what you wanted, the person would probably refuse to serve you.
2) I wondered whether that man would have spoken like that to someone he knew. I guess he would never speak like that to a superior at work, so he must separate people into two groups: people he has to be polite to, and people that don't really matter. I think that is a horrible way to look at the world.
The second incident happened on Sunday. I went to the petrol station to get diesel for my van. When I arrived, all the pumps were busy, and there were a couple of cars waiting. As I looked at the pumps, I realized that one man had finished putting petrol in his car, and he was wiping all the windows of his car. He didn't seem to care that other people were waiting. Actually, he took so long that he was still there after I had finished filling up at another pump. Of course, there is a separate area of the petrol station for wiping your windows, but this guy obviously could not be bothered to move his car. Again, I wondered whether he would have done that if the people waiting had been people he knew. I really wanted to know whether he was just not thinking about the other customers, or whether he had thought about it but just didn't care.
Anyway, this week I would like to hear from anyone who has experienced examples of very good or bad manners recently, be it in Japan or in another country.
Look forward to hearing your stories.
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Comments
Hi David and everyone,
Good manner and Bad manner.
I think your cases that you’ve seen were annoying for me as well.
As you mentioned there are a lot of inconsiderable people still in Japanese society.
I can’t come up with recent cases, but I strongly remembered the story that I saw in Bali several years ago,
My husband and I had a dinner in restaurant where serves Lobster only for foreigner.
A guy( maybe in his 60’s or 70’s) forced to waitress to pour beers in his glass.
At that time I heard him to say “ ほら、お客様なんだから、さっさと酒を注げよ！” of course in Japanese.
I was embarrassed I too was a Japanese.
By the way, I wonder if manners are depends on culture, nations.
I mean, when I studied in NZ, in my class room, my class mate threw the work sheets/work book to me.
She was nice woman that usually gave me a hand. But I confused her way.
I was taught by adults,” do not things throw it to others when you want to hand it “when I was little, so that I was a bit confused but I tried to understand this was a difference between Japan and Western countries.
- noriko
- 2011年10月 4日 15:54
Hi everyone,
I have a feeling that two things David mentioned are two different examples. As for the first one, just walking up and saying what you want is sometimes not very rude or bad manner in Japan. Suppose you’re in a lively “soba” restaurant, saying 「こんにちは。ざるそばをお願いします。」would be nice, but sometimes not very smart. Just saying 「ざるそば！」might be cool (with a nice smile, it would be even better). I’m not sure how was the situation of this コロッケman, but whether or not just saying 「コロッケ」is rude depends on the situation like the atmosphere, the way of his saying, his facial expression, his mood, and so on. On the other hand, the man in the second example, I think, is just stupid, as stupid as shop assistants in some countries who are chatting keeping their customers waiting in line. By the way, I witnessed many times people (not Japanese) just saying “Coffee.” or “Beer.” in a plane or at a bar in the U.S. It depends, right?
- Jazmín
- 2011年10月 4日 16:48
Hi Jazmin,
I guess you are right, but the way this man spoke was really rude. It sounded as though he was talking to a dog!
Even so, I think most Westerners would say "Please." (I most definitely would.) As a matter of interest, what is the problem with saying ざるそばをください？ It doesn't take much longer to add the last part!
- David
- 2011年10月 4日 17:10
Hi David and everyone,
I am not feeling well because I had an accident yesterday. In the morning, I was on a train as usual, and the train was very crowded. When I was about to get off the train to transfer, people in the car pushed me so hard. Then guess what happened to me? I lost my balance and fell down. I was so surprised, and then felt a bit embarrassed. I got bruises on my legs, and I still ache all over my body :(
I am off to bed, so I will write about the topic later this week.
good night and sleep tight!!
amo
- 匿名
- 2011年10月 5日 01:21
Hi David,
About the first case: not adding "please" when people order food, I do too but I do looking at sales person's eyes, in a soft tone. I've never thought it was rude. Because many people do that way and it all depends on how people say it or their facial expressions, as Jazmin said. If people say it in bossy ways, their attitudes will be rude. 日本ではみんながそんなふうに注文するから、マナーが悪いなんて思ったことなかった。But come to think of it, it doesn't take much time just add please, as you said. I will put please from now on when I order something. Thanks for reminding me!
I can't think of good menners and bad manners at the moment much.
Japanese people ask people who just met for the first time, their personal questions.
We pour beer or Sake in other people's glasses. I heard most foreigners prefer drink on their paces.
I think saying Itadakimasu before the meal and Gochisousamadeshita after the meal are very good manners.
We are taught not to sit on tables because tables are where we eat. I saw foreigners sit on tables several times. Is it accepted in Western customs?
Hi Jazmin,
Long time no see you. I'm so glad to see your comment again. I always learn from your writting both English and well-rounded perspectives.
Hope to see your comment again. :-)
Hi amo,
I'm so sorry to hear about what had happened to you. You must be so suprised and sad. I hope you will be okay soon.
Fumie
- 匿名
- 2011年10月 5日 06:44
Hi David,
> I guess you are right, but the way this man spoke was really rude. It sounded as though he was talking to a dog!
He is thoroughly obnoxious. However, he would say to his wife, "Ocha kudasai", if his wife were bossy in his family.
Hi Amo,
Take care.
Ash
- ashmoleanmuse
- 2011年10月 5日 08:47
Hi Amo,
Hope you are feeling better today.
Hi Fumie,
I know there are differences like not taking your shoes off and sitting on tables (I often sit on tables!), but I am talking more about ways of treating people.
- David
- 2011年10月 5日 10:03
Hi David,
Thank you for updating some interesting topics.
I have some experiences like first thing almost everyday in my office.
I work in a health examination department in a hospital and many people come to check their health everyday.
Some people are polite but other people are not.
At first polite parsons say “Good morning. My name is ○○○.I’m a member of ○○○ health insurance.” at the reception. The rude person just stand in front of the reception and say nothing.
These persons take health examination in an arrogant.
In my boss’s case, he always reading novels or fall asleep during working time.
And he calls all his women assistants “あんた“.
He always kowtows to his boss the other side.
Hi amo
I'm sorry to hear your accident.
Are you OK now?
Are you in your office and working today?
Take care.
Green
- Green
- 2011年10月 5日 12:57
Hello, David and everyone.
Regarding first incident:
I have worked at a cake & ice cream shop as a part-timer.
Not only older men but school girls ordered saying only the names of cake or ice cream they wanted.
Of course, no "thank you" would be heard from such customers' mouth.
They may be based on the view of "the customer comes first".
As you know, there is a traditional one of "the customer is god (お客様は神様です)" in Japan.
Though, I could neither think those customers were "god" nor see any 後光 behind them :Hello, David and everyone.
Regarding first incident:
I have worked at a cake & ice cream shop as a part-timer.
Not only older men but school girls ordered saying only the names of cake or ice cream they wanted.
Of course, no "thank you" would be heard from such customers' mouth.
They may be based on the view of "the customer comes first".
As you know, there is a traditional one of "the customer is god (お客様は神様です)" in Japan.
Though, I could neither think those customers were "god" nor see any 後光 behind them :Hello, David and everyone.
Regarding first incident:
I have worked at a cake & ice cream shop as a part-timer.
Not only older men but school girls ordered saying only the names of cake or ice cream they wanted.
Of course, no "thank you" would be heard from such customers' mouth.
They may be based on the view of "the customer comes first".
As you know, there is a traditional one of "the customer is god (お客様は神様です)" in Japan.
Though, I could neither think those customers were "god" nor see any 後光 behind them :Hello, David and everyone.
Regarding first incident:
I have worked at a cake & ice cream shop as a part-timer.
Not only older men but school girls ordered saying only the names of cake or ice cream they wanted.
Of course, no "thank you" would be heard from such customers' mouth.
They may be based on the view of "the customer comes first".
As you know, there is a traditional one of "the customer is god (お客様は神様です)" in Japan.
Though, I could neither think those customers were "god" nor see any 後光 behind them :
But we had to serve with a smile to everyone to come, especially in the happier place like a sweets shop.
Thanks to this experience, I come to respond to every staff at shops or restaurants with "please" and "thanks".
Regarding second incident:
I feel the number of such people is increasing recently, don't you think so?
Many people don't care about the other people.
The case that happened to Amo is one of these issues.
I often see the rudeness in the packed train.
Amo, wishing you a speedy recovery!
- B-Marie
- 2011年10月 5日 13:10
Hi David.
I think your opinoom is right . But in Japan, not all people add "please" when they order food. The same as me but sometimes I do. It's depend on the situation. In my opinion this is a common case in Japan.
Second one (at petrole station)
He is a out of question but I have seen such a person sometimes another situations. So I wonder there aren't such a person in another coutry?
Hi Amo,
Are you OK now?
You had a bad accident,hadn't you?
I hope you are feeling better now!!! Take care.
- Katherine
- 2011年10月 5日 15:29
Hi David,
No problem at all :-)
Hi amo,
I’m sorry to hear about the mishap. A friend of mine back from college has once fallen in the gap between the platform and the train, and pulled out by other passengers. Be careful and get well soon!
Hi Fumie,
Thank you for your comment. I’m so glad you remembered me. Sometimes I’m too busy (or rather lazy) to access this site:-P
- Jazmín
- 2011年10月 5日 16:15
はじめてコメントします。日本語だけど。
日本のばあい、自分の周りの人たちとの関係維持に気を遣いすぎるのだと考えます。その結果、自分と無関係な人たちに気を配るエネルギー（energy）が、もう残っていないのではないでしょうか。枯渇して。
たとえば、コンピュータ言語に熱中する人は、自然言語でのコミュニケーションが不得意とか。音楽に情熱をかたむけるピグミー族には絵画や言語があまり発達しないとか。どの専門分野にも、そのエネルギーの集中配分という問題があるように、日本では、自分の利害関係のあるサークルに全エネルギーをもっぱら注いでいる。こういうふうに感じています。
ちかごろ、その傾向が加速度を増し、きわまってきたようにも見えますが。いかがでしょうか。
個人的な体験をいうときりがないので、止めておきます。
もちろん、これは一般論です。習慣の問題でもあるので、教育やら何やらで、修正可能だとは思います。個人的には、他人に気配りできる社会が望ましいと思います。
とはいえ、すくなくとも、半数以上の人たちが、後ろの人のためにドアを持っているようにならないと、なかなか難しいかも。じぶんの周りの人間がやらないと、おそらく、やりません。
いま、気づいたのですが、日本語だと、どうしてもこんな風に丁寧に書いてしまします。英語だと、Hi! で入ったと思います。
- karashi
- 2011年10月 5日 19:48
Hi David,
Sorry, what I said deviates from the point. Thank you for pointed out.
Hi karashi,
Nice to have you with us!
Fumie
- Fumie
- 2011年10月 5日 21:31
Hi David and everyone,
Sorry for my late post this week, too.
Hi Karashi, Nice to meet you! B-Marie, I haven't greeted you with "Hi!" yet, either. Look forward to talking with you.
As for the topic, let me share my shameful experience in Cairns, Australia in 2005. I got on a bus for the suburb of Cairns and told the driver the name that I wanted to get off at. (Is the last word 'at' necessary?)
I heard the driver suddenly shout at somebody, but I couldn't understand what he said. My niece who lived there at that time explained to me with a smile why he got angry: It was me that he shouted at because I hadn't added "please" to the destination.
He must have hurt because he thought I was very rude. I wanted to fix it, so I walked up to him and aplogized, "I'm sorry for that I didn't say 'please', but I didn't mean that. I just wanted to say the name clearly and also I wanted to emphasize it." I usually never forget to add 'please' and I don't know why I didn't say it then. I knew what I said to him was just an excuse and I thought I should have said 'please' to him. Since then, I never forget to add 'please' to something to request.
By the way, do you say 'thank you' to a bus driver when you get off the bus? When I stayed in Vancouver for a month in 2009, I often took a bus. (Should I use 'the bus', 'busses' or 'the busses' in this case?)
It seemed that almost all Vancouverites said "thank you" to the bus driver when they got off. I felt that was really nice to hear and made it a rule to follow the way after coming back to Japan, too.
Have a relaxing weekend, everyone. Good night.
tsuneko
- tsuneko
- 2011年10月 7日 00:21
Hi all,
Sorry for the irrelevant comment, but it's so sad.
RIP Steve Jobs
Ash
- ashmoleanmuse
- 2011年10月 7日 09:13
I think the first case is common in Japan.Most Japanese just tell the name of the food and they add 'please' regarding to a situation,atmosphere,status of the shop,and feeling of that time.But hearing your opinion ,I realize that just adding 'please' makes sales person happy.Next time I order ,I'll do that way.
On the other hand ,second case is obviously rude in Japan too.Such a behavior is out of question.
- fuijawa
- 2011年10月 9日 21:35
I think the first case is common in Japan.Most Japanese just tell the name of the food and they add 'please' regarding to a situation,atmosphere,status of the shop,and feeling of that time.But hearing your opinion ,I realize that just adding 'please' makes sales person happy.Next time I order ,I'll do that way.
On the other hand ,second case is obviously rude in Japan too.Such a behavior is out of question.
- haruka
- 2011年10月 9日 21:35
I think the first case is common in Japan.Most Japanese just tell the name of the food and they add 'please' regarding to a situation,atmosphere,status of the shop,and feeling of that time.But hearing your opinion ,I realize that just adding 'please' makes sales person happy.Next time I order ,I'll do that way.
On the other hand ,second case is obviously rude in Japan too.Such a behavior is out of question.
- fuijawa
- 2011年10月 9日 21:36
I think the first case is common in Japan.Most Japanese just tell the name of the food and they add 'please' regarding to a situation,atmosphere,status of the shop,and feeling of that time.But hearing your opinion ,I realize that just adding 'please' makes sales person happy.Next time I order ,I'll do that way.
On the other hand ,second case is obviously rude in Japan too.Such a behavior is out of question.
- fuijawa
- 2011年10月 9日 21:36
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- bilete avion
- 2011年10月30日 06:51
What a fun pattern! It’s great to hear from you and see what you’ve sent up to. All of the projects look great! You make it so simple to this. Thanks
- abercrombie and fitch deutschland
- 2011年11月16日 12:18
Hi David,
I would say that people from lower socioeconomic status in Japan are not taught to treat everyone with common courtesy. Having said that, rude behaviour is just rude.
Ash